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  • 800  Fwd: Per Dennis Wilson here is an Interesting comment by   −  Apollonius Dionysius Ep. 739 Libertarians Debate Creation of Israel: Compatible with Libertarian Ideas? · Tom Woods | The official website for a [Read story]
    • too bad libertarians don’t read Tocqueville

    • @jonatank If you consider that to be proof then you are very UN-convincing!

      You also make a very specious assumption about what Dennis Wilson, Apollonius Dionysius, Tom Woods, I and libertarians know or have read.

      How do you expect to convince or persuade others with blanket accusations and no reasoning or application of basic logic?

    • @atlasaikido
      well here is the idea- you make that so. in 2 months we are back to where we started

    • @jonatank

      There has been a BIG DEBATE on some “libertarian” discussion groups about who did what to whom in the Gaza strip. Personally I am grossed out and thoroughly tired of people–claiming to be libertarians–who think that I can be swayed to embrace THEIR particular totalitarian cause if I am deluged with enough pictures of dead people in Gaza or dead people in Auschwitz.

      I can think of NO REASON why I should give a shit about two GOVERNMENTS–Hamas & Israel–fighting each other! As Jim Davidson said in one posting, “I could honestly not care any less which side is “right”. A pox on both their houses.”

      We “libertarians” seem to agree that the BIGGEST threat to YOU AND ME as individuals is “Government” in general and the various governments within the USA (Federal, State, County, City, Parish, School districts etc, ad nauseum) in particular. These are a much bigger threat than anything that is half a world away. So why is there such a concern about what OTHER stupid and totalitarian governments are doing? It is abundantly clear that the biggest threat to YOU AND ME personally is MUCH CLOSER and more important than choosing sides in some stupid conflict between totalitarian governments(!) half way around the world!

      Once again we are witness to “libertarians” choosing to focus energy and attention on less important issues that DIVIDE us rather than the really important issues upon which we supposedly can all agree.

      The signers of the Declaration of Independence faced a similar problem regarding the (then world wide and centuries old) issue of human slavery and they put it aside in favor of issues that they COULD solve and upon which they were in **UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT**.

      We alleged “libertarians” still have much to learn from people who are two centuries dead.

      AtlasAikido p Dennis Lee Wilson
      Signatory: Covenant of Unanimous Consent

      Continued here: Solving ALL the world’s problems–*NOW*!
      http://dennisleewilson.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=143.msg308#msg308

      So what happens when really smart people build rocket ships instead of protesting gravity?

      Feel free to adopt and model making that so! Where one actually leads oneself without squirming when asked to think like a free person, and without enslaving oneself nor others!

      My focus is on those who want to help themselves instead of those who might as well be government:

      How I Freed Myself.

    • @atlasaikido
      wow.
      non sequitur
      but I can open it up, after all it’s my posterior on the line here. which of all the nonsense should I adress first?

    • @jonatank

      https://liberty.me/members/jonatank/

      Ahhh. NOW I remember where I encountered such postings.

      Hermeneutics!

      It was the subject of an interesting criticism from no less than Murray Rothbard.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

      “Murray Rothbard, an economist, had this to say in his 1989 article, The Hermeneutical Invasion of Philosophy and Economics:
      So why then does the present author … have the temerity to tackle a field as arcane, abstruse, metaphysical, and seemingly unrelated to economics as hermeneutics?

      Here my plea is the always legitimate one of self-defense. Discipline after discipline, from literature to political theory to philosophy to history, has been invaded by an arrogant band of hermeneuticians, and now even economics is under assault….

      The essential message of deconstructionism and hermeneutics can be variously summed up as nihilism, relativism, and solipsism. That is, either there is no objective truth or, if there is, we can never discover it. With each person being bound to his own subjective views, feelings, history, and so on, there is no method of discovering objective truth.”

      THAT is why I felt a profound and fragmenting confusion.

      Critics of hermeneutics –such as Jonathan Barnes or David Gordon[1] – are understandably moved to satire, to stating or quoting hermeneutical tracts and then “translating” them into simple English, where invariably they are revealed as either banal or idiotic…

      …So why then have not the distinguished critics of hermeneutics played the game on their opponents’ own turf and waded through the mountains and oceans of hogwash, patiently to cite and refute the hermeneuticians point by point and journal article by journal article? To ask that question is virtually to answer it.

      In fact, we have asked some of the critics this question, and they immediately responded in a heartfelt manner that they do not propose to dedicate the rest of their lives to wading through this miasma of balderdash. Moreover, to do so, to play by the hermeneuticians’ own rules, would be to grant them too much honor. It would wrongfully imply that they are indeed worthy participants in our conversation. What they deserve instead is scorn and dismissal.

      Unfortunately, they do not often receive such treatment in a world in which all too many intellectuals seem to have lost their built-in ability to detect pretentious claptrap.[13]

      [1] https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothbard/the-hermeneutical-invasion/#_edn1

      [13] https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothbard/the-hermeneutical-invasion/#_edn13

    • @atlasaikido
      I see I’m facing a master of non sequiturs.
      Please tell me how Alexis de Toqeuville has something to do with Hermeneutics?

    • @atlasaikido
      I am so sorry you think some obscure text by Rothbard or Auswitz has something to do with weird believes people have about Middle East

    • @jonatank YOU are living in a strange world where you CANNOT see the words I wrote and where you CAN see proofs that are invisible to me.

      Would you be so kind as to EXPLAIN how YOUR position “too bad libertarians don’t read Tocqueville” is incumbent on me to explain to you?

      You clearly have had ample opportunity to support YOUR own claim.

      Let’s review.

      I stated //If you [Jonas] consider that [Tocqueville] to be proof then you are very UN-convincing! You also make a very specious assumption about what Dennis Wilson, Apollonius Dionysius, Tom Woods, I and libertarians know or have read.

      How do you expect to convince or persuade others with blanket accusations and no reasoning or application of basic logic?//

      You CONTINUE with “well here is the idea- you make that so. in 2 months we are back to where we started”.

      That’s a Denial of Self Responseability.

      I reviewed your past comments here: https://liberty.me/members/jonatank/ and it’s MORE of the same TINA: There Is NO Alternative [Statist quo cop-outs] I.E. ‘”it is weird to … [you] when people of liberty advocate “more of quantity and less of quality STATE” SOLUTION’. [Emphasis Added]

      So?

      I’m still NOT interested in fueling //…your [ongoing] stupid [quality state] CONFLICT between totalitarian governments(!) half way around the world!//

      I supported my advocacy of Self Reliant Liberty here: http://dennisleewilson.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=143.msg308#msg308

      I provided a Model for freeing oneself outside of State Conflicts…which evidently eludes you standing on Tocqueville’s shoulders.

      I asked //So what happens when really smart people build rocket ships instead of protesting gravity?

      Feel free to adopt and model making that so! Where one actually LEADS Oneself without squirming when asked to think like a free person, and without ENSLAVING oneself nor others!

      My focus is on those who want to help and govern themselves INSTEAD of those who might as well be Government.//

      Re: “I [you] see I’m [you are] facing a master of non sequiturs. Please tell me how Alexis de Toqeuville has something to do with Hermeneutics”?

      Re: “I [You are] am so sorry you think some obscure text by Rothbard or Auswitz has something to do with weird believes people have about Middle East”

      Re: “I [You are ] am sorry, I [you] do not inhabit the same context. Do you believe in some way that anyone in the Middle East would embrace libertarian creed?”

      You are being disingenuous by dropping the context!! And hoping to get away with it.

      Rothbard’s works has you, et al, dead to rights BOTH on his article on Zionists. That group of individuals in Israel as ruthless as the Neo-Cons in the USA.

      AND

      Hermeneutics! The subject of an interesting criticism from no less than Murray Rothbard.

      Indeed, the mainstream media provides information within a very narrow framework that serves to manufacture consent for government policies and stifle meaningful debate on important
      issues.

      Jeremy R. Hammond provides analysis and commentary from outside the standard framework, challenging mainstream narratives,exposing government and media propaganda, and broadening the scope of the discussion.

      He is an independent political analyst, a recipient of the Project
      Censored Award for Outstanding Investigative Journalism, author, and
      publisher and editor of Foreign Policy Journal.

      He’s the author of three books: The Rejection of Palestinian Self-
      Determination: The Struggle for Palestine and the Roots of the Israeli-Arab Conflict (2009), Ron Paul vs. Paul Krugman: Austrian vs. Keynesian Economics in the Financial Crisis (2012), and Obstacle to Peace: The US Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (2016).

      What Others Are
      Saying About “Obstacle to Peace”
      “Jeremy  Hammond’s  carefully 
      documented  and  highly informative  study of how Washington has joined 
      Israel in undermining the  efforts  to  achieve  a  peaceful  political 
      settlement  of  the  Israel-Palestine  conflict is  a  welcome  and  timely  contribution,  and one  that  focuses  directly  on  a  salient  issue, 
      all  too  often  evaded.    Unless  and until US policy shifts from the
      obstructionism that he details
      convincingly, this grim and 
      destructive confrontation is likely  to take a terrible toll on the
      Palestinian victims, with harmful 
      consequences for the Israeli occupiers
      as well, probably reaching well beyond.”
      — Noam Chomsky, Professor Emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and author of numerous books, including Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians.

      “This is simply the best book ever written on the duplicitous role played
      by the U.S. Government in complicity with Israel to deny Palestinians
      their rights under international law, particularly their right to a state of
      their own. Brilliantly reasoned and researched, Obstacle to Peace is a must

      Americans have a special duty to understand this conflict as our
      country bears such a heavy responsibility for the prolonged Palestinian ordeal.”
      — Richard Falk, Professor Emeritus of International Law at
      Princeton University, former UN Special Rapporteur on the situation
      of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, and
      author of numerous books, including Palestine: The Legitimacy of Hope
      and Israel-Palestine on Record: How the New York Times Misreports Conflict in the Middle East.

      “This important book documents Washington’s complicity in, and
      coverup of, Israel’s theft of Palestine.”
      — Paul Craig Roberts, former university professor, Treasury
      official, and Wall Street Journal editor

      Etc etc

      I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the following Free e book
      The Israel-
      Palestine Conflict
      A Collection of Essays at end of following article: The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel | Foreign Policy Journal

      The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel

      I found this in the Recommended Reading section of US Rewards Israel’s Bad Behavior
      by Sheldon Richman, September 23, 2016

      US Rewards Israel’s Bad Behavior

      US Rewards Israel’s Bad Behavior

      https://sheldon.liberty.me/

    • @atlasaikido
      Would you be so kind as to EXPLAIN how YOUR position “too bad libertarians don’t read Tocqueville” is incumbent on me to explain to you?

      It is very simple. The Libertopia of the Rabid Rothbardians cannot work outside the hardcore Brittish Commonweath. (UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New zealand , HOng-Kong). all other places just dont subscribe to the ethics.

      and you knowe repostiong your own non sequitirs, or heaping on them the nonsesce by sheldon do not remove thier non sequitir status

    • @atlasaikido
      But to demonstrate the absurdity of your won statements, you start with
      “We “libertarians” seem to agree that the BIGGEST threat to YOU AND ME as individuals is “Government” in general and the various governments within the USA (Federal, State, County, City, Parish, School districts etc, ad nauseum) in particular. These are a much bigger threat than anything that is half a world away. So why is there such a concern about what OTHER stupid and totalitarian governments are doing? It is abundantly clear that the biggest threat to YOU AND ME personally is MUCH CLOSER and more important than choosing sides in some stupid conflict between totalitarian governments(!) half way around the world!”

      and then proceed quoting Rothbard and Sheldon who are exactly that -opinionated intellectuals half world away issuing statements about issues they know nothing about

    • @jonatank

      Letters from AtlasAikido

      Re: “The Libertopia of the Rabid Rothbardians cannot work outside the hardcore Brittish Commonweath”.

      It is exciting when someone writes something and expands and clarifies….

      Inevitably, there is someone who misses the point, replacing the actual argument made with one that was dreamed up and or twisted. Jonatan Krovitsky did this. I can find not a single place where Murray Rothbard (nor myself for that matter) argued or portrayed “The Libertopia of the Rabid Rothbardians cannot work outside the hardcore Brittish Commonweath”.

      In fact MR argues directly the opposite to expose British Imperialism amongst other things See https://mises.org/library/war-guilt-middle-east

      One normally does not advocate X by that’s undersirable and unrealistic to do X!*

      *Such was the subject of an interesting criticism from no less than Murray Rothbard.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

      AtlasAikido

      I will let Rothbard bring those who are interested up to speed. The major hole in my knowledge that Rothbard filled was the role of the  Zionists.

      That group of individuals in Israel is as ruthless as the kill crazy hegemonist Neo-Cons in the USA.

      And the Zionist colonization of Palestine on the backs of the bayonets of British imperialism….

      I am grateful to Murray Rothbard for BOTH of his illuminating articles.

      ————————————-

      Re: “You and me”.

      When it comes to FREEDOM, there is no “WE”.

      There really is only ONE person that you are capable of freeing and that is yourself. A person with the attitude of a slave cannot be free anywhere or at any time. Here is a link to a picture of such a person…:

      http://tinyurl.com/American-Sheep-pic

      THE CONTEXT of the statement is that when it comes to solving problems without using the Collective, the Government, the State (the WE), a person must adopt the ATTITUDE of an individual instead of a collective, one must think for himself/herself. For an example of switching from “WE” to “I”, Ayn Rand’s book “Anthem” comes to mind. Another example that springs to my mind is when the Lone Ranger says to Tonto “We are surrounded by hostile Indians. We are in real trouble.” and Tonto replies “What you mean ‘WE’, white man?”

      To elaborate on that example: Someone says that the State solution to such and such problem isn’t working, we are in real trouble, what are we going to do about it. The essay “Freedom Has No ‘System” very nicely answers with the equivalent of “What do you mean ‘WE’, Statist?”

      Such an approach puts the burden of freeing oneself onto the Statist. It UNDERSCORES the fact that the Statist has NOT bothered to think of solutions that do NOT involve enslaving other people. As pointed out in the article: “…[watch] my fellow humans squirm when asked to think like a free people…”.

      Ref:
      Stephan Molyneux’s Handbook to A Statist.

      http://www.strike-the-root.com/72/molyneux/molyneux4.html

      Note: There is only one entity that can pit the poor against the rich, the young against the old, the white against the black, this country against another and thrive thru divide and conquer. Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged presciently warned of ALL of this…

      It is the state that creates conflict where none need exist…

      http://tinyurl.com/There-is-NO-WE

      ————————

      Jonatan Krovitsky your entire position completely and consistently IGNORES the moral foundation of libertarianism and the moral high ground that differentiates libertarians from all other groups: the Non-Aggression Principle.

      “A libertarian is a person who believes that *no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation.*  Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim.”

          – L. Neil Smith
      (The Non-Aggression Principle is  *underlined* in the statement above.)

      It is by ignoring the Non-Aggression Principle that people get away with advocating more and more government intervention in our daily lives.

      It’s NOT so called “opinionated” “know nothing” Rothbard nor Richman, and their teachers/students that’s Unfree in an Unfree World. Jonatan Krovitsky It’s you!

      Can you not protect yourself, let alone your women folk? And what of your neighbors? Do you rely on them to protect you, familly, children and friends?

      I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the following Free e book: The Israel-Palestine Conflict
      A Collection of Essays and Noam Chomsky, Paul Craig Roberts, Richard Falk reviews of Jeremy Hammond’s book, “Obstacles to Peace”.

      I found the above in the article: The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel | Foreign Policy Journal

      The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel

      Sourced from the Recommended Reading section of “US Rewards Israel’s Bad Behavior” by Sheldon Richman, September 23, 2016

      US Rewards Israel’s Bad Behavior

      https://sheldon.liberty.me/

      If you think of yourselves as helpless and ineffectual, it is certain that you will create a despotic government to be your master. The wise despot, therefore, maintains among his subjects a popular sense that they are helpless and ineffectual.”
      —Frank Herbert, The Dosadi Experiment

      “No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck”.

      How I Freed Myself.

      ——————-

  • I agree with Rick, I’m not so much in the micro space anymore but am quite aware of the macro picture and that’s telling me there’s likely to be an economic slowdown here and those – obviously -are not good for energy prices, I’m long coal, natural gas at this time, I think uranium is a little bit of a dead market for the time coming for reasons…[Read more]

  • mickey-downtownMickey Fulp, the Mercenary Geologist, sits down with Maurice Jackson of ‘Proven & Probable’ to discuss 1) Current State of the Natural Resource Space 2) Are we out of the Bear Cycle 3) What are the catalyst’s 4) [Read story]
  • brian brady just joined Liberty.me 1 hour, 52 minutes ago

  • Bart Peters replied to the topic The next Lehman Brothers? in the forum Navigating Banking 2 hours, 11 minutes ago

    I suppose I was quite early here lol

     

    BUMP

  • Mango Thunderslice posted an update 5 hours, 9 minutes ago

    Janet Yellen, current Chairwoman of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors, ruler of the world of modern fraudulent casino finance, has overseen the destruction of the American economy that would do her predecessors proud, Ben Bernanke and Alan Greenspan. If she was a doctor, her medical plan for America might sound something like this… Enjoy.

  • Pat Petrini started the topic Earn an income promoting liberty in the forum General 6 hours, 45 minutes ago

    Hi All,

    If you haven’t yet heard of the Life Liberty Advocate program, you might like to check this out: https://lifelibertyadvocates.com/

    They have a program where you can earn part-time and full-time income promoting the principles of liberty.

    I’ve listened to many of their materials and it is some of the best liberty education materials…[Read more]

  • Pat Petrini replied to the topic Earn a living spreading the word? in the forum Theory & Significance 6 hours, 59 minutes ago

    Hi Zach,

    This may be something of interest to you: https://lifelibertyadvocates.com/

    I know the people behind this and they are true freedom supporters that are making great incomes spreading the message of liberty.

  • Tom Liberman‘s article 97 to 1 Must be Bad Suing Foreign Nations JASTA has a new comment 8 hours, 13 minutes ago

    jasta-veto-overrideThe United States Senate just voted 97 – 1 to override a presidential veto of JASTA and that can only mean one thing. The legislation being proposed is either useless and/or dangerously stupid but helps the [Read story]
  • Earl Zarbin published a new article, Footnote to Hillary Clinton Endorsement, on the site dailyrhyme 9 hours, 41 minutes ago

    The Arizona Republic in Phoenix, Arizona, endorsed Democrat Hillary Clinton for president on Wednesday, September 29, 2016. In doing this, the newspaper stated, “Since The Arizona Republic began publication in [Read story]
  • Kent McManigal published a new article, Presidential debates have no value, on the site Kent For Liberty Blog 10 hours, 13 minutes ago

    (My Clovis News Journal column for September 30, 2016- Please note, my CNJ columns will be moving to Wednesday beginning next week. The paper made some cuts, and dropped some opinion columns, but I survived the [Read story]
  • Marchella posted an update 10 hours, 19 minutes ago

    Free Market VS the State

  • Joe Withrow published a new article, The Only Debate Topic That Matters, on the site Journal of a Wayward Philosopher 11 hours, 50 minutes ago

    debatesubmitted by jwithrow. Click here to get the Journal of a Wayward Philosopher by Email Journal of a Wayward Philosopher The Only Debate Topic That Matters September 29, 2016 Hot Springs, VA “Loading [Read story]
  • Craig Wilkinson just joined Liberty.me 11 hours, 59 minutes ago

  • Ken Jons-un posted an update in the group Liberty.Meme 12 hours, 15 minutes ago

    On this day in 1881 the fine Ludwig von Mises was born

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