Is heaven a libertarian society?
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Is God a libertarian?
Hmmm… Is “biblical heaven” a good enough of a definition? The heaven in which the Father, Son, Holy Spirit all three in one reside. The place from whence Lucifer fell.
I think God is a statist. There are a lot of examples in the Bible where it talks about obeying authority.
Yes, but he is the authority, in the new testament Jesus says, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s …” so there is a recognition of political authority, but I think he tries to make the distinction between spiritual authority.
Marchella, there are a few different ways to take the line which says give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.
The first is a statement that you have to pay all taxes owed to the Roman government (or any authority figure). Or you must give Caesar nothing because he is owed nothing. If you own property which Caesar does not own, then Caesar has no right to claim it since it is not his. Thus, you are not obligated to give it to him.
Aside from that, though, there are plenty of examples in the Old and New testament about the punishments God inflicts for disobeying all his rules– such as being exiled from Israel, the nation being sold into slavery, etc.
When I read about things like that, I can only conclude that God operates on a basis of “obey or be punished” which is not a good way to introduce positive social change. You’re wouldn’t be telling people to do something because it’s right or beneficial, but merely to do something in order to avoid being punished. That kind of defeats the purpose.
Righteous authority. Remember the angel told Joseph to flee to Egypt with Mary and baby Jesus
to escape Herod’s decree. And flee they did.
Ok, I can’t “reply” to your reply, but Ok, just wanted to make sure before I thought about it, that’s what you meant.
Supposing God exists, is it even possible to know anything about him or his opinions? Does God even have opinions?
I’ve always thought God is a libertarian. He gave us free will. He doesn’t FORCE us to obey Him. We are free to choose.
Can it really be called “Free Will” if it is given to us? I think that is the question that should be asked.
Free will, yes. But then, there’s the whole horrible, endless punishment bit at the end if you don’t obey. Rather like a state that let you be, then tortured you as an old person.
Well, I suppose the question would be, what is the “torture”? I personally believe “Hell” is simply separation from God. Not the flames of the pit, as is commonly portrayed in Catholicism. Of course, I can’t know; I haven’t been to Heaven or Hell, but it seems to me that once we die, and we see that God DOES exist, and we choose not to be with Him, the separation alone would be punishment enough.
And since I don’t know God’s mind (beyond the free will bit) I don’t know when the determination is made. Do we have to decide to follow in life? Or do we get the chance when we stand before Him? I don’t know. But I choose to follow Him now, because my life is better for it.
But if God is all present, how can one be seperated from him?
I hope by the phrase “commonly portrayed in Catholicism” that you were not stating that the belief was universal in Catholic thought. There is no definitive statement that settles this issue among theologians. No doubt there were many early church fathers who believed in a literal fiery Hell, but some believe it’s symbolic and other believe it’s more nuanced than that.
Symbolic:
There are many theologians which teach that the “fire” is symbolic of spiritual pain and separateness. I think this is the symbolism you are using.
Literal and Physical:
There’s some substance to the idea that it might be the cosmology of the day (influenced by the Greeks) that plays the central role here. Hell was viewed as being below ground and we knew by volcanoes and thermal vents that it’s mighty hot down there. The Greeks actually had several levels of Hades, but you get the idea. Even if the hellfire were literal AND physical, there would be no definitive teaching that the fire would be everywhere equally so that there were no places to avoid it’s presence, only that it would burn for all time.
Literal but not Physical:
There are theologians who have taught that the fire in Heaven, Purgatory and Hell are the same thing, but are experienced differently based upon the disposition of the deceased. Those in Heaven experience is as warm and loving, those in Purgatory experience it as brilliant and beautiful, but slightly painful as it “burns” away imperfections and those in Hell experience it as painful and thus forever turn away from it. The Seraphim, the highest choir of angels get their name from a Hebrew word that means, “the burnt ones”. The idea is that they are so close to God that they are surrounded by the spiritual fire. This would imply that it’s spiritual power, not a physical burning. Another sign that points to a non-physical fire is that fact that it’s not possible that souls currently in Hell experience a physical fire since they are but disembodied spirits and will not receive their bodies back until the general resurrection at the end of time.
This last sense is my preference. At any rate, the consistent teaching is that the main consequence of Hell is eternal separation from God.
“Is god” – There is no evidence to support the notion that there is a god, and there is no real reasoning one can follow that can result in active belief in a deity. Im from the UK and my view is that if there is one thing that infects US Libertarianism it is religion. Ron Paul especially, has some decent ideas, total religious nutjob :P. My view is that Libertarianism must be based firmly in reason and evidence, and that atheism or agnosticism are much more coherent with Libertarian philosophy as a whole.
While this is a worthy cause, I’m not sure how much headway there is to be made 🙁
The cultural indoctrination is strong :\
Also, I would at minimum proffer that there is no evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist (may His noodly appendage be praised; Ramen).
The spiritual can’t be proven through materialist means. It’s OK. Us “nutjobs” like Ron Paul aren’t a problem, it’s the ones who PRETEND to serve God but worship the state.
You know, the FSM isn’t a good example to disprove God. Theists approach God by saying, “The world is like X, and if that’s true, then X means there is a God.” The FSM approach is “The FSM is true, therefore the would must be like X.” Those are completely different epistemological approaches.
Like others said, depends on which god you’re referring to. The above isn’t meant to offend anyone, I think it demonstrates what the actions of the god of the old testament would be interpreted as if they were independently viewed outside the construct of religion. I don’t think there is a god, but if there is and it is the god of the bible, I don’t see it as libertarian. It is an authoritarian that puts any human despot to shame.
If you want to magically dismiss all of that and only look at the new testament, I can see a stronger argument for god being libertarian. Although Jesus instructs his followers to do this, that, and the other thing, he does not smite those who disobey or disagree with him as does the god of the old testament. Most of his teachings were simple and meant to simplify or eliminate the legalistic leanings of the Jewish faith.
The New Testament reflects and fulfills the Old. God has taught his people in stages, covenants. His teaching gradually achieving perfection in Christ. Would those first Hebrews have understood had they not first understood that God existed and they were chosen? If you read the New, then the Old, it makes more sense. I recommend Scott Hahn’s “Understanding Scripture”.
I don’t know that God is a libertarian, but I do believe that libertarianism and Christianity fit well together.
Check out 1 Samuel 8 and forward, when the Israelites demand a king, because they wanna be like the other tribes. http://biblehub.com/niv/1_samuel/8.htm Samuel is horrified and God, through Samuel, constantly tells them no and warns about what happens when you have a (my terminology here) political class ruling over them.
Two takeaways I have with this are:
If the Judeo-Christian God and the stories surrounding him were made up, that is pretty revealing of the mental illness and internal conflict people had in early agricultural societies. There is a hypothesis that the invention of human violence came from the invention of farming- in that kids who were used to play had to be beaten to accept long, hard farm labor. The Bible was written only a few hundred to a thousand years into this- I think.
So when I look at the Bible as fiction, I see many people desperate for answers that tell them: yes you can have freedom! No you don’t have to be slaves or get married or live one way of life! In fact most of your dreams are perfectly fine!
The tyrant god is a reflection of people who are either so far gone they want to control others and see their lives as the only way to live, or people who shame themselves out of conviction that being free is an evil desire.
The benevolent anarchist god is a reflection of people who strongly desire to forgive humans for their flaws, and want to promote the free will aspect of humanity / the bible.
I’m sure we could analyze other Gods and religions in a similar way. Old religions could be a gateway into understanding the mental conditions of people in the past, and thus understanding more how our cultures have become what they are.
I don’t mean to offend, but it sounds more like a desperate excuse to not believe. The words twist looking for solid reason. Not everything has an explanation. Nor does everything NEED explanation. Man, in his arrogance, thinks he can explain it all.
I don’t know about God, but Jesus Christ was a libertarian for sure.
It really depends on which denomination you ask since there are as many theories about the character of God as there are varieties of religion. As for my particular sect, I would say yes, God would be considered libertarian. He establishes certain rules or “laws” which he believes will enhance the mortal character and bring him greater joy in this life and the life to come. People are free to choose to obey them, but they are not free to choose the consequences of those actions such as addiction, physical harm, war, economic misfortune, servitude etc. Consequences come as a result of all decisions, both positive and negative. If you choose to step in front of a speeding train, you cannot then choose to alter the laws of physics and escape unscathed.
I do not think we should draw any conclusions about God, on basis of Bible or some other so called Holy Book. I know not much (I read it when I was a kid, and might have forgotten many of its aspect), Bible New Testament is simply the collection of booklets who followed / believed in Jesus to be the son of lord on the basis of science and knowledge of Jesus and/or forecasts from past. For me its just the reflection of their faith on him. Many sadhu’s and intellects in the east were capable enough to do what he used to do and some could do even more. As for I know, Jesus learnt the same science in the East Asia during his trip with the business personnel, which was totally a miracle to the context he lived when he returned to the context. Hinduism believes that, every creature are the creation of god and hence each creature is the son/ part of the god. For me: When Jesus referred him to be the son of God, he wanted to refer this belief, that he had obtained. However, I am not sure about who, what, how, where is the god and is s/he a libertarian. But, I can give a hint, Lord Krishna, worshiped by hindu is the only claim that exists who announced himself to be the god, however, we can arise lots of questions for its validity.
If we relaxed the standards of proof that we require in life to the level that “believers” apply to God, I don’t know how we’d possibly function.
There’s no proof that there aren’t 100 invisible giant men with machetes outside every door to my home waiting to hack me to pieces, so I’d better stay inside. Of course, there’s no proof that there isn’t one right behind me as I type this, either.
I’m screwed.
Humans have a logical structure to their minds and it is basically universal for all humans. But there are kingdoms. The mineral kingdom exist but it cannot comprehend the vegetable kingdom. It is not equipped to do so. Likewise the vegetable cannot comprehend the animal and the animal cannot comprehend the human kingdom. Each exists without being able to comprehend that which is beyond its ability. Ascribing to something greater than our comprehension things that we can comprehend can only rattle around in our logical structure with all of its finite parameters.
James Redford makes the case that Jesus was an anarchist http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html
I read that yrs ago on Anti-state. Those guys taught me a lot. Took no prisoners.
