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  Ethan Shukis December 4, 2016 at 1:12 pm

  What is the origination of property rights? Where do they come from that you can reason their existence as natural?

  We usually argue for property rights at some point in our discussions as libertarians, but I’m curious as to where we can claim they’re from. Personally, I derive mine from God and my religious beliefs, similar to what Jefferson stated about God given rights.

  But what about someone who doesn’t believe in a deity? How can they derive property rights in a way that can’t be dismissed as ideals, but derived in nature? This is also (and arguably more so) important for arguing these natural rights to people who won’t accept a divine aspect.

  It’s important to have property rights, and they’re evidently beneficial, but the argument remains for declaring these as rights, otherwise the NAP is in jeopardy. How do we have a right to property?

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  John smith December 4, 2016 at 1:22 pm

  Property rights have existed, since mankind as we are now has existed. It is natural law, that which is natural to our species. All animals have some form of this ingrained into them. So, property rights did not stem from some sacred document, but from our natural state of being and that which made us. So, if you are a believer in a deity, that deity gave us natural law, including right to our property. If you are not a theist, the natural processes and nature, gave us natural law. That what is natural to us, and most beneficial for our species. As each species has something similar.

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  John smith December 4, 2016 at 1:26 pm

  Our species would not have survived, without some form of right to property, voluntary interaction, and the division of labor.

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    Ethan Shukis December 4, 2016 at 1:51 pm

    But what about this protects property rights, John? We could say that, since animals take over territory, that’s also a natural right.

    I’m trying to figure this out myself. How do we have a natural right to property? Let’s ignore the benefits it’s given us, because someone could just argue taking property for their benefit. What in our natural being gave us these rights? I’m looking for a more concrete and defined answer, no offense meant.

    Btw, thank you for the response, I like discussion.

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  John smith December 4, 2016 at 2:20 pm

  Well, number one: you protect your property rights and property. And “the warrior with the moral high ground, usually is victorious “. As property rights and first user principles have been widely accepted amongst humans, and general protected by most humans, as it is seen as mutually beneficial. On a small scale, it’s mutually beneficial for me to help protect or keep an eye on my neighbors property, as I would want the same done for me.

   

  So I guess the clear defined answer is: people. People protect property rights, because they are naturally seen as inalienable, natural to us, and not to be perverted.

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    John smith December 4, 2016 at 2:21 pm

    Well, number one: you protect your property rights and property. And “the warrior with the moral high ground, usually is victorious “. As property rights and first user principles have been widely accepted amongst humans, and general protected by most humans, as it is seen as mutually beneficial. On a small scale, it’s mutually beneficial for me to help protect or keep an eye on my neighbors property, as I would want the same done for me.

    So I guess the clear defined answer is: people. People protect property rights, because they are naturally seen as inalienable, natural to us, and not to be perverted.

     

    And no offense taken.

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  John smith December 4, 2016 at 2:23 pm

  Just as a squirrel stores nuts for the winter, or birds migrate in flocks. Either because God made them this way, (or whatever deity you believe in) or that these actions are inherent and natural to the species.

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  John smith December 4, 2016 at 2:29 pm

  this HTML class. Value is http://www.badquaker

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  John smith December 4, 2016 at 2:32 pm

  this HTML class. Value is http://badquaker.com

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  Properal December 13, 2016 at 4:25 pm

  Property emerges as a successful strategy to reduce conflict over scarce resources.

  See, The Property Strategy

  Human norms and conventions on property, are based on fundamental behaviors that even primitive animals exhibit.

  See, Property is Not Just a Social Construct.

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  Martin Brock December 16, 2016 at 9:26 pm

  Territorial dominance as an evolutionarily stable, reproductive strategy.

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  RJ Miller December 23, 2016 at 1:31 pm

  By any measure, I think this classic essay by David D. Friedman is the best account for both the origin and modern basis for property rights: A Positive Account of Property Rights

   

  It’s an excellent essay in part because it helps reinforce a critical point even us Libertarians tend to forget: Government doesn’t exist – and cannot exist – until after some form of property rights/law and order already exists to begin with.

   

  All that being said, I don’t recommend any arguments that assume an “axiomatic proof” of property rights exists.

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