Reneging On Sexual Contracts - Liberty.me

Reneging On Sexual Contracts

Brian Farmer June 15, 2017 at 6:22 pm

I was talking with a female friend, and I made the comment that people of good intentions make promises, but people of good character keep them. We should expect people to do what they agree to do, otherwise society will fall apart because people will be afraid to enter contracts if they know they will have to try to get the courts to enforce the contract to obtain a judgement for damages (and collecting is even harder) which costs you even more time and money.

The girl said that you shouldn’t always expect people to keep their word. She used this example. A guy and girl go out on a date, and end up together in bed making out. The girl decides she’s too tired for sex. The girl promises the guy she will make it up to him, and they will have sex the next time they go out. The next time they go out, the girl decides she still doesn’t want to have sex.

The girl’s rationale was that if a girl decided she didn’t want to have to keep her word, she shouldn’t have to. It shouldn’t matter how much the guy had invested in the girl in time, emotions, money, etc. Her side of the agreement was more important than the guy’s side of the contract, but she couldn’t give me a reason why other than it was a girl’s choice.

I told her the girl is just playing games with the guy, and he should kick her to the curb. But in today’s society, would a jury convict the guy of rape if he enforced the contract? I don’t know. Legally it’s wrong, but it could be argued that it was justifiable. (I can’t murder someone, but if they break in my house, I am allowed to defend myself with lethal force.)

I asked her about a sugar daddy arrangement, if a girl refused to have sex after she had been paid. What if the guy paid her bills for her, and she could not refund the daddy the money? Is it ok for the sugar daddy to enforce the contract? If a girl promises sex in exchange for money/shopping/etc., but can’t refund the money and won’t have sex….that’s deception and theft.

Used to, a husband could not legally rape his wife because sex was an expected part of the marriage contract. It’s only within the past few decades that courts have adopted the opinion that a wife’s rights to withdraw consent are higher than a husband’s rights to marital sex with his wife.

Legally, if a girl decides to flake out and say no at any time, the guy can be convicted of rape. (Sometimes even after it is done, if a girl has regret sex, she still claims rape.)

So what do you all think? I’m not asking so much about the legality of it, but the morality of it.

If you own your body, you should have the right to contract it out. Should sexual favors be considered property rights, even if courts don’t view them that way?

While most courts only allow you to recover monetary damages for breach of contract, when it comes to property, courts will sometimes order the delivery of property to satisfy the contract. (And there is no arguing that sex will be unique to each and every person, just as each piece of real estate is unique. It’s virtually impossible to find an equal replacement.)

In some of the BDSM sex fetish stuff, there is something known as consensual non-consent. The girl agrees to do things she really doesn’t want to do. (And some girls get off on a guy dominating them completely.) Is consensual non-consent rape?

If a girl agrees to sex, and then says no at the last minute, is that consensual non-consent? Where do you draw the line?

This should make for an interesting discussion.

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Atlas… June 15, 2017 at 11:38 pm

Excerpts from
Natural Monopoly [Playing to Natural Strengths of a Philosophy of Liberty]
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1. HOW TO MESS UP

When I pointed to Natural Monoply as a consideration or aspect of Polyamorism minus the illusions of irresponsibility, I got back and read from a blogger that this does not equate; and his latest is that restrictions such as Contracts are needed for love relationships.

It is based on a misguided concept of conflict, based on centralization and a hierarchical command structure.

You know who holds a post? Cannon fodder.

Osho calles them oxes…Indeed yoked beasts of burden. See Sara’s article.

You are thinking centralized and controlled. Think decentralized and outside of controlling others…

2. ASSOCIATION AND SECESSION

You can win, by WITHDRAWING [in the manner Sara and her small group did].

The universe is infinite in all directions, said Freeman Dyson, and within your ability to move, it is CERTAINLY infinite ENOUGH.

What you perhaps lack is IMAGINATION to find better ways of accomplishing the same goals….such as say agreements that you yourself uphold instead of contracts making others perform!

I’ll get to that…
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3. Contracts are usually long standing; and complicated; with concerns about a person’s trust: not knowing who you are dealing with; and subject to Court Cronyism. And I have WITHDRAWN from such. I prefer the following route.

http://dennisleewilson.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=611.msg1224#msg1224

https://connect.liberty.me/natural-monopoly/
AtlasAikido

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Brian Farmer June 16, 2017 at 7:28 am

That sounds like a bunch of gobbledegook. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make, or how you believe that post is relevant to the discussion.

I’d greatly appreciate it if you would put your ideas into your own words, and try to be articulate and relevant. Cut and paste doesn’t help communication and understanding. Thank you.

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Atlas… June 16, 2017 at 3:56 pm

Thank you for telling me what you read.

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Perhaps I did not make myself clear by posting excerpts from my own article in my own unique way and with comments with a blogger on polyamorism and those related to contracts.

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I see that you are not sure what the meaning is of contracts, polyamorism and playing to natural monopolies as I chose to use them and what relevance they have to your discussion post reneging on sexual contracts?

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I hear your Request and lament for what you appreciate, which is I’m guessing authentic honesty, originality and clarity above all?

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You want my ideas to be my own words and you want them to be articulate and relevant.

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Well in that case why do you need contracts?

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After all they are so UNoriginal? And usually written by lawyers and enforced by dishonest crony court boondoggle system etc I provided a reference and copy in my article of an alternative. I am honestly concerned that it will get a fair hearing after reviewing your communication…

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IF someone honestly does not want to have intercourse with you, then surely contracts are just another way to supercede what is authentically honest and original at that moment for them.

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Whenever you make a request of someone, hand them a little card which says this on it: “Please do as I requested, only if you can do so with the joy of a little child feeding a hungry duck. Please do not do as I request if there is *any taint of fear of punishment if you don’t*. Please do not do as I request *to buy my love, that, is hoping that I will love you more if you do*. Please do not do as I request if you will feel guilty if you don’t. Please do not do as I request if you will feel shameful. *And certainly do not do as I request out of any sense of duty or obligation*.”’ — Marshall Rosenberg

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I don’t look at the above as a contract, but as a tool to communicate an idea that someone said better than I can.

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I’m more interested in subscribers, not making others do what they don’t want to do. Any Covenants I have are with myself. I’ve written about that standing on the shoulders of those more articulate than myself.

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Perhaps you would provide a copy–paste is ok for me–of what the sex contract that you refer to as one worthy and or apparently according to you unworthy to be reneged on? I.e. the subject of your post?

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And how it is authentically original and why?

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  Brian Farmer June 17, 2017 at 11:03 pm
  
  Quit disrespecting me with your incoherent nonsense. It is a violation of the NAP. You should be ashamed of yourself.
  
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Alan June 19, 2017 at 7:20 am

I had to laugh when I saw this. I just got finished publishing an article “Is your girlfriend a prostitute?”. So ya this had me rolling.

I will add something I didn’t put in that article. If your not going dutch (splitting the bill) and she doesn’t put out, dump her like a hot rock. Dating is a roundabout way to trade sex for cash. I have no problem with prostitutes, until and unless they don’t hold up to their end of the bargain. If she is not putting out then she is using you for the things you can get her and she is providing nothing of worth you can’t get somewhere else.

The only thing women have to offer straight men, that other men cannot offer straight men is sex.

On the other side of the coin however. I don’t see how men somehow think that just because she is female it’s acceptable to own someone.

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  Gary McGath June 20, 2017 at 8:09 am
  
  Alan: I will rarely say such a thing on any forum, but you are a total jerk. You fabricate agreements in your own mind and then consider yourself defrauded because others don’t comply with them. You understand women only as something to put your penis into, and understand money for sex as the only reason they would date someone. Just crawl back into the gutter you came from. People don’t exist just to gratify your physical wishes.
  
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  Atlas… June 21, 2017 at 3:48 pm
  
  Yes Alan, Point taken. As Walter Block points out in the Jeff Riggenbach reading below everyone is trading in a free market including those who date, married, etc.
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  To wit: “Those lacking sufficient imagination [amongst other things] will see no connection between the prostitute entertaining her customer and the afore- mentioned milk and pie episode. But in both cases, two people have come together on a voluntary basis, in an attempt to mutu- ally gain satisfaction. In neither case is force or fraud applied.”
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  Here is Jeff R and W Blocks work Watch “Defending the Undefendable: Prostitution” on YouTube
  
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  Watch “Defending the Undefendable | 1. [Of 35] Starting with The Prostitute” on YouTube which follows commentary, forward by M Rothbard and F.A. Hayek
  
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  https://youtu.be/hQswLQuZApQ
  
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  Search for pdf: Defending the Undefendable – Mises …
  Mises Institute › sites › default › files › D…
  Defending the. Undefendable. The Pimp,Prostitute, Scab, Slumlord, Libeler,. Moneylender, and Other Scapegoats in the. Rogue’s
  
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  Thank you for bringing this up. I did forget about this resource and aspect.
  
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Ken Jons-un June 19, 2017 at 11:08 pm

Maybe you should simply ask for a refund on the dinner you just paid for. But I suppose word might get around to the rest of the local dating pool and lower your acceptance from other future dates. lol
I’m not sure if you have been on a date or a “date” but the latter has certain venues that seem to operate on guaranteed experience that one does not get from non-professionals who seem to focus more on free agency rather than free market.

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Massimo Mazzone June 20, 2017 at 7:16 pm

Fun thought exercises. Let me try. I am for “implicit contracts”, meaning the customary things that go without being said in any contract in any society.

I am (was, I have been out of the market for a while now) very aware that if a girl tells you “not tonight, I am tired, let’s leave it for tomorrow”, this is not a contract, at most put you in a somewhat better negotiating position the following night.

The case of a prostitute is very different, it is a contract that implies some type of sex. But again, I would say that the girl can back off (but has to repay the money), if she finds something unusual, like certain oversized male appendices in porn-movies.

More difficult is the sugar-daddy situation. It is difficult because it is usually hypocrite: the two talk about disinterested help, both knowing that is a lie. Given that there is a spoken (although false) reference to disinterested help, I would say that in this very specific case the contract is the spoken one, not the implicit, so the girl, (or the boy) can back off, although she would lose reputation for sure.

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Martin Brock July 6, 2017 at 11:15 am

Contracts for specific performance are invalid in common law, and Rothbard accepts this standard in Ethics of Liberty. In Chapter 19, he discusses a “promise theory” of contract law and rejects it in favor of a “title transfer theory”. If your GF promises you sex and you think that’s a valid contract, you’re mistaken. There is no contract to enforce. If she promises to mow your lawn, that’s not a contract either. If you pay her to mow your lawn and she doesn’t, she may owe you a return of the payment and possibly financial damages, but she doesn’t owe you her labor, because self-ownership is inalienable. The money is alienable, and you may transfer title to it conditionally. Her labor is not alienable.

https://mises.org/system/tdf/The%20Ethics%20of%20Liberty_0.pdf?file=1&type=document

Breaking any promise may violate your personal ethics. That’s a separate issue.

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Atlas… June 18, 2017 at 6:17 pm

Bummer…

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So yeah I’m hearing a huge yearning and lament for respect, order, love, clarity, consistency and feelings of frustration, anger and confusion that this issue brings up in you..and is so clearly dear to you?

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i.e. a looming Crisis that Stimulates you regarding myself and perhaps Sara Burrows–see prior link?

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And that you apparently picture Careless Denial of Responsibility i.e. Moral Chaos in the bedrooms across America that would spread violence to the famillys and streets and transactions and relationships across the board…IF Non-subscribers to Sexual Acts, Intercourse by Contract, were not forced and so obliged to perform or else society will crumble.

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And I note your Diagnosis that I am having sloppy verbal intercourse with you and your need to have something like a Clear Articulate Sex Contract (law and order, consistency, respect) dialogue or else I Deserve: “should be”, have a duty, obligation, to guilt, shame and leave in disgrace and or be punished/banished?

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And I Observe that you consider my Request for a Copy of the Sex Contract in Question AS a Disrespecful Demand that Deserves punishment and expulsion–and loathing as an Enemy Image–from the community of libertarians who uphold and respect the NAP?

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I am hearing that…

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Please tell me if I heard what you said?

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Cheers, AtlasAikido, Mal Roarke…Signatory Covenant of Unanimous Consent…
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PS Wow (I prefer to work on what I actually have control over) ~ Miki Kashtan paraphrased from Youtube Conflict Hotline

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FRED…The Frequency Resonance Energy Dynamic in this cabin seems to be looking up! ~ Kelley Bryson paraphrased

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Here is how I might respond in general regarding the halla Ballou on uber alles (more than anything else) Sex Contract. It may well be a silent assessment of the situation..

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The Brian Farmer concern for the whole sex contract movement is nothing but cover for Collectivist control of individual human action!

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If he can concoct a reason to accuse someone of alleged future related harm/damages he can control them/me [and others] and demand they have sex with him and or demand they leave the company of those who uphold the NAP.

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For myself I’ve stepped back from The Roller Coaster uber alles Contract Domination Prosecutorial Love Boat…

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Introduction to Alternatives in my Comments here.

The “Lady of the Lake” Should Have Opened a Fruit Stand

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