Maidsafe

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Maidsafe

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  • Daniel Shafrir

    Dave mentioned Maidsafe in a previous discussion. What are your views on this and how would this work where others are not?

    As of today (4/22) you could buy safecoins (the Maidsafe tokens). I haven’t quite got my head around what the value is for having the safecoins

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  • Luke Parker

    I’m of the opinion that any tech requiring an altcoin to operate will sooner or later be using bitcoin to operate. That goes for etherium and Ripple as well.

    Overall it sounds like a good idea, I don’t wish to discourage the creators behind it; but I do think they’ll be inevitably faced with the choice of switching it to the bitcoin blockchain somehow, or being destroyed by a competitor who does take bitcoin.

    After they make that decision is when I’ll invest my mind into checking them out more.

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      Dave Burns

      any tech requiring an altcoin to operate will sooner or later be using bitcoin

      Namecoin?

      they’ll be inevitably faced with the choice of switching it to the bitcoin blockchain somehow, or being destroyed by a competitor who does take bitcoin.

      I’m confused. Are you saying they should replace safecoin with bitcoin, or use the bitcoin software to make their own blockchain, or they should take bitcoin for payment? There is no way of “switching [safecoin] to the bitcoin block chain” as in, sharing the same actual blockchain, which is what I thought you meant at first.

      I also find it a bit strange maidsafe came out with a coin, but I haven’t done anything except watch their video, so I can’t say anything intelligent about their choice. Ernie Hancock was asking them how safecoin was related to bitcoin on his podcast last week, but he asked it wrong and they gave an ambiguous answer. I want to know which parts of the software running safecoin, if any, came from bitcoin, and how they vetted the parts that are new.

       

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      Luke Parker

      I guess in this case using safecoin on a sidechain of bitcoin would be ideal, but of course accepting bitcoin for payment of the maidsafe service is a necessary first step.

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    Daniel Shafrir

    I think what they’re saying is pretty much the same. Since they’re based off the Master-protocol, they’re actually piggy-backing onto Bitcoin rather than having a separate coin like Ether.

    What I haven’t figured out yet is what is the rate of increase of safecoins, how this SAFE net (I hope I’m using the terminology correctly) is going to be monetized, etc.

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    Bart Vandalay

    Maidsafe and safe-coin are not based off the Master-porotocol. This confusion comes from the fact that the Maidsafe network has not launched yet so to help launch it they just did a crowdfunding campaign using the master-protocol (who was really the only such platform up to the job right now).

    Safecoins can’t exist yet because it is a completely different technology than bitcoin style blockchain technology. So what people just bought in the crowdfunding campaign were not safecoins. They bought (with either bitcoin or mastercoin) a temporary proxy token called “maidsafe coin” which IS based on the master protocol. Once the safe-network launches sometime in the next few months people holding these “maidsafe coins” will be able to exchange them on a 1-to-1 exchange rate for the real “safe-coins” which will be stored like cash on the safe-network. Again, safecoins are not blockchain-base like bitcoin or any current altcoin. Once the safe-network launches then people will be able to be rewarded in safe coin by lending part of your computer’s memory and bandwidth to the network or by developing an application on the safe-network. The more popular your application is the more safecoin you earn. Maidsafe has been in developement for 7 or 8 years independant of the bitcoin developement lineage. So it is not just another alt coin.

    I’ve heard David say the reason they are now going public is because they think because of bitcoin’s popularity and awareness and interest of ambitious projects like Ethereum, bitshares, matercoin, etc. and the snowden revelations, the public might now actually understand the need for the safe-network. Whereas if they had gone public 2 years ago they probably would have been greeted with blank stares and yawns.

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      Dave Burns

      So they are completely separate, independent, nothing in common? Wow. I wonder if someone can hack it? I really should spend some time learning about this. Is there a way to leverage L.me to get up to speed as a group (assuming the group is interested).

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      Bart Vandalay

      I think the best way to think of Safecoins is as an incentive structure and internal currency for the soo-to-be launched safe-network. It is not a direct competiter to bitcoin. It will do somethings better and some things worse.

      Safe-coins are designed to operate in a much more decentralized way than even bitcoin. Whereas bitcoin is decentralized it still has the centralized blockchain that can be mapped and tracked. The maidsafe folks designed safe-coin to be completely decentralized like cash. The only people who know of the transaction are the buyer and seller. No digital trail exists. David Irvine claims to have solved the double spending problem and the byzantine generals dilemma without the need for a blockchain. As this has been all theoretical up until this point only time will tell if it works or not in the next few years.

      As far as hacking goes, because of the truely decentralized nature of the safe-network there really isn’t anything to hack. But again, only time will tell if the theory holds up in practice. But they certainly have grabbed the attention and enthusiam of a lot of crypto-anarchist types in a hurry.

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      Dave Burns

      only time will tell if the theory holds up in practice.

      That’s what I meant when I said, I wonder if someone can hack it, have they really solved double spending, improved on the blockchain. All new code. I would love for it to be true, but if they instead were claiming to have invented a new uncrackable highly efficient cipher on their own, people would be throwing tomatoes. Am I missing something? I must be missing something. I feel stupid.

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    troi+

    maidsafe is an interesting project – i am going to buy a few safe coins but I wish that they would have chosen the term ‘space credits’ that was my vote. Anyway as a crypto equity enthusiast I like my bits backed. And I like computer networks to have a purpose. I am not a fan of bitcoin although I own a tad just in case I am wrong about its future value (prediction –> zero)

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    Daniel Shafrir

    Troi, not sure you can buy any more just yet. The crowd funding has come to an end (much sooner than expected). As Bart alluded to, the next chance to get it would be when the SAFE network gets up and running and you’ll provide hard-drive space or a good application for the network.

     

    Dave, I agree, this is definitely something worthwhile getting to understand. I have only heard of it in passing and only recently, but the idea seemed very promising to me right from the beginning. I’m interested to see what will be of other blockchain technologies and the integration between the various technologies, but even though I haven’t delved too deeply into Maidsafe, it was the one that seemed most interesting to me (who knows, maybe when Ethereum moves to the next phase I’ll get super hyped up on that too…).

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    Bart Vandalay

    Yeah anyone interested in learning more about maidsafe I can’t recommend this podcast too highly:  http://soundcloud.com/sovryntech/sovryn-tech-special-0021

    Keep in mind it was recorded about month ago.

    Motherboard also has a good writeup done 4 days ago:

    http://motherboard.vice.com/read/bitcoin-internet-the-plan-for-a-decentralized-web-that-runs-on-cryptocurrency

     

     

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    Kyle Torpey

    Hi Everyone,

    Decided to test out Liberty.me today, so this is my first post.

    To those who were mentioning something like MaidSafe that doesn’t use Bitcoin, there is Bitcloud. The idea is to pay storage nodes with bitcoins rather than creating a new currency. I’ve been helping Javier, the lead developer behind Bitcloud, with a lot of the nontechnical aspects of the project. We had a meeting with MaidSafe at one point to take a closer look at the similarities and differences between the projects. Coding has only just begun for Bitcloud, but the goal is to have an alpha version put together by the end of the year.

    Whether it’s MaidSafe or Bitcloud, there will definitely be some kind of decentralized, encrypted version of storage and hosting available quite soon. Storj is another project that’s basically a decentralized Dropbox, and Mediagoblin wants to do decentralized storage for video streaming. There’s also Toroken, which plans to bootstrap the Tor network with bitcoin payments. In other words, there are plenty of people working on these concepts. 🙂

    When it comes to safecoins, I decided to stay out of the crowdfunding process. As someone mentioned before, I think all altcoins will eventually be absorbed by the Bitcoin network. Even in the case of MaidSafe where they don’t use a blockchain, there is still the possibility that the code could be forked and the initial distribution of coins could be given out based on the current distribution of bitcoins.

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    Daniel Shafrir

    Interesting point, Kyle.

     

    What I’m actually curious about with regards to Maidsafe is whether, after all the 430m tokens are distributed and farming can no longer generate new tokens, do users of the SAFE network need to pay with safecoins to use the network? Would they have to before that too? Would you only use safecoins to buy the applications? Not sure about the use of safecoins other than app developers and ‘farmers’ getting them. Not sure how much people would want to pay to go online (e.g. pay per MB downloaded?). I guess people would pay to store their data (like dropbox) but what about the websites aspect of it?

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    Bart Vandalay

    Hey Daniel,

    Just to be clear, 430,000,000 safecoins where just sold in the crowdsale via the temporary “maidesafecoin” proxy token which people will convert to real safecoins once the safe-network launches. That is 10% of the total safecoin supply that will ever be. In other words there will be a total of 4.3 billion safecoins created (through farming and developing applications).

    I know I’ve heard David Irvine answer the question about “what happens after all the safecoins have been created and distributed?” But I don’t recall what his exact answer was.

    I know he repeatidly makes a point of emphasizing the importance of access to everyone (SAFE is an acronym for secure access for everyone).  Here’s a quote from the Motherboard article:

    “I asked if the SAFE system couldn’t have been implemented somehow without the need for a cryptocurrency, and Irvine said the idea was to come up with a way that didn’t mean people were limited by a system that only let them use as much resources as they were able to put in themselves. “The problem with that is a lot of people today just have mobile phones and just have tablets; they don’t have resources that would be particularly valuable to the network, like a PC,” he said. The cryptocurrency element means people with limited resources can still use the system in the same way; they just don’t get so many safecoins. “

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      Daniel Shafrir

      Thanks for the reply and the clarification on 4.3B vs 430M. I think I’m probably starting to get it.

      People with low-storage devices can get on the network and still get safecoin (only less) because they’re still contributing. If they need more than what they contribute, it’s likely they will be net-consumers rather than net-contributors. That implies they will need to pay more safecoins into the network (which will be distributed to whomever stores their data) than the safecoins they get for storing others’ data. So even if all 4.3B are created and floating around, you can still ‘buy’ storage space with safecoins, only you’ll need to buy the safecoins first on an exchange or from people directly like cryptos today.

      Now I’m wondering whether that’s the route that is going to happen from the get-go. Whether you always pay for storage with safecoin right from the start or whether it’s free to use until all the 4.3B gets farmed and only then people will start paying for it. I mean, it may be free to use, but those who contribute to the network (storage or applications) will earn a portion of those 4.3B so the stock of safecoins will be initially distributed to those who contribute to the network. In the end, as long as you contribute all your harddisk space and you consume less than what you have (which is most of us), you’ll still be a net-contributer.

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    Bart Vandalay

    Let’s Talk Bitcoin – Ernie Hancock on Bitcoin, Maidsafe, and Freedom! – Youtube

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    Daniel Shafrir

    what a guy! Can you get any more excitable?

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    Dave Burns

    I love Ernie’s radio show/podcast (Declare your Independence!).
    He’s gotten off on a conspiracy theory about bitcoin, though, all paranoid that the bad guys will take/have taken over. It’s either not that bad, or it’s much worse, because all his complaints boil down to “it’s software!” So if that makes bitcoin a problem, so is PGP, BitTorrent, and sure as hell Microsoft Windows.

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      Bart Vandalay

      Yeah Erie is great in small doses but can be frustrating to listen to at times when he can’t concisely ask his guest a specific question and then shut up and listen. Often times he’ll go on and on ranting in circles only to finally pass it off onto his guest about a minute before the buffer music starts playing.

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    Bart Vandalay

    Just wanted to post 2 recent Maidsafe related links. In the first one Page Peterson facilitates a google hangout with David Irvine with the newly minted SF Maidsafe Development Pod (some good questions in the 2nd half): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbQ9bvkvL24

    And a Maidsafe history timeline: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE5zmH2DqqM

     

     

     

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    Francis Brunelle

    I’ve started a new group on MaidSafe if anyone is interested: http://liberty.me/groups/maidsafe-149850532/.

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    Bart Vandalay

    Thanks Francis. Just joined.

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