What is your stance on male circumcision?

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What is your stance on male circumcision?

  • Ady Sheerer

    I was wondering how many of you still support it and why?

    If, like myself, you think circumcision is a form of infant torture and genital mutilation then it would be interesting to know how did you come to realize this.

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    • James Wagner

      My wife and I decided not to have our son circumcised. It just seemed like an unnecessary complication to us. Personally, having been circumcised, I always wondered what it would be like to have all of the skin I had been born with. If my son decides he doesn’t like having the skin, he can always decide to go through the procedure later, right?

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        Ady Sheerer

        I hope that the reasons behind your awesome choice were more than trying to avoid unnecessary complications. If there would have been no complications at all would you have chopped part of your baby’s penis off?

        I read in a study that men lose 40% sensitivity as a result of circumcision.

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        James Wagner

        I regret letting the nurse lance his foot to take blood samples for the State documentation. I certainly would not want any part of my son removed unless it were necessary to preserve his life.
        I do wonder how they quantify the amount of sensitivity lost. How did they come to the figure of 40%? It sounds like it could be a fun research project.

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        Ady Sheerer

        I was in a rush when I left the comment and didn’t choose my words very wisely. The information about the 40% loss of sensitivity came from Stefan Molyneux and I know he is pretty reliable when it comes to doing his research and I was actually wrong about that 40% because it is 75%. I guess my mind did not want to acknowledge the horrific reality of sensitivity loss and lowered that number.

        Here’s the video. If you are interested in finding out more about it you can find the sources in the description.

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          Derek

          I made the decision not to circumcise based on a Stefan Molyneux video. I can’t remember the name of the video but in this one he actually showed footage of the procedure being done. I’m not squeamish but I couldn’t even make it to the part of the video where he starts making arguments. The sound of the baby screaming was so visceral that I had to turn it off, and decided right then and there I would never do that to any son I had in the future.

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        Ady Sheerer

        28m 30s into the video you can find the info that I was talking about.

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      Brian Strater

      I used to be in a nursing program and our teacher presented to the class a region of Africa where they ‘genitally mutilated’ the girls at birth, this was also the terminology used in class. Needless to say the class which was composed 99% of females all gasped in absolute horror and disgust from hearing that from the teacher.

      I then being the man of the class brought up the issue “So I guess it’s fine that we genitally mutilate the men our culture?” The class instantly attacked me by creating every excuse that they could, of which I reminded them that they did not even wait to hear of the reasons behind the female circumcision in Africa.

      I am against involuntary mutilation as a whole, be it male or female and it continues to surprised me of the blatant male disposability in the west.

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        Ady Sheerer

        You know you stumbled upon an inconvenient truth when you get attacked. When it comes to circumcision people’s bias and hypocrisy  is mind-blowing.

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      Kieran Keshan

      Circumcision is about as vile as the religions that encourage it. Not only does it boggle my mind trying to figure out why a parent would mutilate their childs genitalia, but why would some parents let a grown man suck on their babies penis at the same time?

       

      Rabbi A. Romi Cohn has sucked 25,000 baby penises – “it’s a joyous occasion”

       

      The news clip makes a big fuss over the herpes but neglects to ask the question, why are these grown men sucking on infants penises in the first place.

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      Ady Sheerer

      Oh yeah, I forgot about this disgusting pedophile “tradition”. But hey, didn’t god say “thou shall suck baby penises?”. Some parents will offer their beautiful newborns as sacrificial lambs if a man in a robe will ask them to do it. The world is insane!

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      DS

      Agree! It’s like war, spanking etc. They are just euphemisms for terrible, violent acts. If we label it “circumcision” it now gets awarded some legitimacy and can be discussed by academics for centuries, but when we call it the “genital mutilation of helpless infants” it’s recognized for the disgusting act that it really is. Like you said, only with religion (or the state) can get parents to positively endorse you sucking on their newborns penis. Fucking unbelievable!!

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      Sean Ridlon

      My stance is “no”. If my son wants it done, he can wait until he’s old enough to pay for it himself.

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      Kamuela Franco

      Against it as routine and supportive of efforts to stem cell transplant new tissue to reconstruct function.

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      Frank Marcopolos

      It’s genital mutilation and criminal, plain and simple.

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        Kieran Keshan

        My stance is “no”. If my son wants it done, he can wait until he’s old enough and DO IT himself.

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      Chip Marce

      Well, as a token non anarchist, non libertarian I guess it falls to me to be the contrarian.  I don’t buy off on the premise that male circumcision is torture or mutilation any more than I buy off on the idea that removing ones wisdom teeth is dental mutilation.

      I won’t comment on the religious aspects as I’m neither Jewish nor Mohammedan. The practical aspects provide more than enough reason for doing so and indeed we did make that choice.  If you’ll forgive the graphic discussion (the subject matter requires it), here are the reasons why:

      1. Eventually most people get old. And the reality is if you do get very old at some time in your life you will probably end up in assisted care. The plain truth is that cleaning an uncircumcised penis takes more effort and that is something that is probably going to not be so well taken care often that type of setting.A very young child can be taken care of by his parents until he can take care of it by himself. But the issue again is taking care of the issue in later life.

      2. Prevention of disease. While it is relatively rare, cancer of the penis does exist and at higher rates amongst uncircumcised males. In addition uncircumcised males have a higher relative risk of contracting HIV when uncircumcised.

      3. It was mentioned on this discussion that circumcised men lose up to 40% of sensitivity.  To put it delicately for younger men that’s probably not a bug but a feature.

       

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      DS

      I’m sure in their own minds the parents have good intentions and use all of these sorts of  rationalizations.

       

      “I don’t buy off on the premise that male circumcision is torture or mutilation any more than I buy off on the idea that removing ones wisdom teeth is dental mutilation.”

      But we don’t typically remove wisdom teeth from infants either do we? If so, I’d find that just as ridiculous. Some people actually don’t have problems with their wisdom and if the do they are fully capable of making that decision themselves when the time comes.

      “But the issue again is taking care of the issue in later life.”

      If the problem is later in life, then why not address it later in life too? Ask an old man in personal care if you can go ahead an remove his foreskin for health reasons. If he says yes then great, go ahead, but if he says no would you go ahead and mutilate him anyways?

       

       

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      Chip Marce

      “But we don’t typically remove wisdom teeth from infants either do we? ”

      Of course not. Infants don’t have wisdom teeth so it isn’t an issue.

      “If the problem is later in life, then why not address it later in life too?”

      You could. But you would also have to accept that it’s more problematic to circumcise an adult rather than an infant. Complications are more frequent. I’m glad my parents simply took care of it. I have no memory of it, and I don’t have to deal with it in old age.

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        Ady Sheerer

        “Cancer of the penis does exist and at higher rates among uncircumcised males.”

        Breast cancer is much more common but we do not rush to remove the breast of teenage girls in order to keep them healthy.

        ” I don’t buy off on the premise that male circumcision is torture or mutilation”

        Have you seen one performed? If not, please watch this video starting at 2m 50s. If, after watching this, you still don’t see any problem with it then it’s time to check your empathy and mirror neurons.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_zkKciuIpA&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dm_zkKciuIpA&has_verified=1

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      DS

      Of course not. Infants don’t have wisdom teeth so it isn’t an issue.

      My point was that there are many human body parts that might become problematic later in life, but it doesn’t mean we go ahead and remove them because there is a chance of problems later.

      Prevention of disease, cleanliness in old age, these are weak reasons even for myself as an adult to get circumcised, but I could respect an adult who made the conscious decision to get circumcised if he thought they were sufficient reasons.

       

      I’m glad my parents simply took care of it. I have no memory of it, and I don’t have to deal with it in old age.

      I’m glad that you’re happy. Your parents took away your right to choose and I guess it turned out for the better. Others may have been forcibly mutilated without consent and not been happy. In fact it happens often!

      Why the hell would you take away the rights of the child (the owner!), if there was risk of them being unhappy? I don’t see how you can claim potential physical health risks can trump free choice and someone’s mental well being.

       

       

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      Michael Bunch

      I don’t plan on having kids but if I did, I would not want my son to be circumcised. I am circumcised myself but I don’t think it’s right to make that decision for him. If he wants that, he can do it himself when he becomes a grown man.

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      Sarah Meyer

      When my son was born in 2005, I had never heard any debate about circumcision. It was something seemingly “everybody” just did. I sure would hate that someone might think I was maliciously mutilating my child. If I were going to have any more children, I don’t think I could do that to him – just because someone said “Hey, think about it this way” bringing up the female genital mutilation comparison. I truly never thought about it that way before recently. I do remember asking my husband back then what he thought – he acted like it was a no-brainer. Everybody gets circumcised. I also don’t really know what the religious implications are, I know it’s a Jewish tradition… but I certainly didn’t have my son circumcised for religious reasons. I’d certainly like to see the movement to abolish this practice gain some major steam. I’d be willing to bet most people I know have never even been presented with the arguments against circumcision.

      Maybe petition hospitals/nurses/midwives/doctors to start educating parents??

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        Michael Bunch

        To a large degree, I think peer-to-peer education and discussion is best. It’s largely just an informal tradition in some Western countries that people go along with. Outside of Africa, I’m not sure there is any need or desire to get it done.

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          Sarah Meyer

          peer-to-peer, yes, but like I said… I hadn’t even heard the debate before I started rolling in libertarian circles. It’s not mainstream enough yet. My thinking was that if my midwife had asked me just as soon as we found out via ultrasound that he was a boy, and had presented any of the cons, or explained that NOT everybody does it, I would have thought a lot harder about it! In the hospital after he was born nobody really even asked me, I mean.. they asked, of course. But it was like “is he being circumcised?” and I said “yes” and they said “ok”. There was no explanation of risks, or what the procedure really does or any of that. Women need professional advice long before the day of their child’s birth in order to begin doing their own research.

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          • Michael Bunch

            That’s fair. I’m neither a woman nor a mother, so I only know so much. But in general I feel like petitions don’t work particularly well. There has to be some way of getting information across informally before there is enough demand for business practices to change, right?

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        Ady Sheerer

        I think that petitioning the hospitals will not be very effective. The reason why no medical professional told you the truth was because circumcision is a pretty big source of income for them. The fee that they charge for the procedure is not the only way they make money from it. The foreskins of babies are sold to cosmetic companies for a lot of money. The horrific reality is that a baby genital mutilation industry exists and that medical professionals are part of it.

        http://naturalbeauty.about.com/od/SkinCare/a/Foreskins-In-Face-Cream.htm

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          Sarah Meyer

          Again… something I didn’t know about it. Thank you! Remember, nurses, doctors, midwives… they’re humans, they’re individuals. I think it would be worth the effort to at least try and raise the awareness within the medical community, not necessarily trying to change policy at hospitals or within the “system”. A doctor can say whatever he/she wants to when consulting with their patient… and pregnant mothers see their doctors a lot throughout a typical pregnancy.

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      Sean Ridlon

      An even greater force than peer to peer is costs vs benefits. I’m guessing most people don’t personally bear the costs of childbirth- social programs or insurance bears the costs. In Alaska, the social program Denali Kid Care refuses to pay for circumcision. If parents want it done, they must pay for it “out of pocket”. This has led a decline in the practice here in Alaska.

      When insurance companies follow suit and deny coverage for live birth with circumcision, the practice will be eradicated immediately.

      I think market forces will have more to do with it than anything else.

      My son is not circumcised. In fact, I am the only male in my family that is. Not my grandpas, father, two brothers, or cousins. It was done without my consent (clearly) and while my mother was unconscious after labor and complications.

      Instead of talking to mothers to be, midwives, and doctors about the practice, I wonder if adult males like me started suing the hospitals that mutilated us without our consent and winning if the costs of past circumcisions would prevent future ones.

      Just a thought.

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      Ady Sheerer

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