UKIP

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UKIP

  • Hannah Longford

    Hey y’all UK libs!

     

    What do you guys think of UKIP? I used to think they were some hope – certainly in terms of social libertarianism – Nigel smokes and drinks and doesn’t apologise for not being PC.

    However, they are always going on about immigration. I do think that unfettered immigration is impossible in a country that has a welfare state though. Being a libertarian though, this isn’t such a big issue for me.

     

    I would like to leave the EU – perhaps that’s a start? And if UKIP team up with more Whiggish element of the Tory party it could roll back the state a bit?

     

    The thing is I’m largely pessimistic about liberty in the UK. Firstly because we don’t have a history of it. Secondly because too many people are hooked into the system and until it starts crumbling under its own debt, the state won’t be properly cut back.

     

    I think the UK could go two ways over the next decade. I’ll be watching to see – and if it gets too bad will probably leave. I do think there’s room for some kind of parliamentary reform though – people seem truly tired of things.

     

    What do you think? I know we shouldn’t bother at all with politics being libs, but…sometimes I find myself hoping some party could at least improve things.

     

    I find the collectivist brainwashing and left-wing dogma about taxes and the lack of education about the economy too much to bear in general in this country!

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  • Zain D

    I, for one, hope that the UK stays in the EU… only to keep Nigel pumping out his awesome harangues about how inept the EU is.

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    Hannah Longford

    No way! You are a libertarian?

    The EU is crony capitalism writ large

    We can have immigration and free market without being part of political union, which is evidently what the dangerous communists like Van Rompuy et al seek.

    These people are enormously out of control. I would rather have our leaders closer to home and corrupt and rubbish than far away and unaccountable.

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      Zain D

      Haha, my post was supposed to come across as a joke 🙂

      The only good thing about the UK being in the EU are Nigel’s entertaining speeches at EU parliament.

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    Milton

    The reality about UKIP is that they are just another bullshit party of populist demagogues. They aren’t Libertarian either. Obviously, theres the issue of immigration. Theres also the issue of massive military spending, which UKIP would increase. Almost all UKIP policy proposals are unfunded. They aren’t socially liberal, all the kerfuffle over gay marriage to attract ex-Tories, and all the crazy UKIPpers going on and on about Romanians or gays or whatever hate topic it is. I agree that the EU is a bureaucratic hellhole and that we can go without it.

    In terms of voting id say, if you are a Libertarian and are going to vote, then your two choices are the LibDems and the Conservatives, neither of which are ideal obviously, both have major problems. I think the sad reality for Libertarianism in the UK is that its more or less non-existant. Just do your best to sort yourself out 🙂

    But yeah, in terms of party, id argue that the LibDems have by far the best internal discourse, best manifesto, best history and best track record when it comes to civil rights issues. Many in the party still want to offer amnesty to all illegal immigrants and to boost migration, many in the party still want full drug legalisation and prostitution legalisation, they want to sort out the currently inhumane system for asylum seekers, they introduced gay marriage and many in the party want to push further for polygamy/polyamory, there is a strong anti-snooping feeling amongst many LibDems, the LibDems were the only party (of the 3 main parties) to vote against the Iraq war, as for the EU issue, the party is divided into 3 groups, a small enthusiastic European federalist movement, a somewhat larger movement of mild-euroscepticism and the largest group of undecideds or still thinking about it. Personally, I would argue that the LibDem MEP’s have by far the best voting record in the European Parliament, if it wasn’t for the ALDE group (Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe) in the EP its quite possible that e-cigarettes would have been either banned or subject to very stringent legislation and medical licensing, which was being driven by the socialists, specifically by a big Labour MEP. As for the economy, there is a strong free market trend running through one section of the party, whereas the other side is Social Democratic. On military spending, the vast majority of the party wants to see massive reductions and there is a big section that wants abolition of nuclear weapons, and even a small section of LibDems who want to push for UK neutrality.  They have consistently stood up for free speech, most LD’s want to see a much more secular Britain, and indeed there is a fairly large chunk of LD’s who want disestablishment of the Church of England and abolition of the Monarchy, they have a very strong contingent of animal rights also. There are many other issues but I think iv made a pretty decent case for them, certainly against UKIP which just sits around 100% sponging, whingeing, spreading populist nonsense and appealing to religious wackos and ex-Tories who think that the most important thing for Britain is to increase pensions, leave the EU and reintroduce ‘traditional marriage’, along with the fact that UKIP has the most working-class membership of any UK party, many of whom want to renationalise the railways etc, recently there has been talk in the media that if UKIP embraced those kind of policies they would become even more popular, I think Farage will go for it.

    The LD’s certainly have their problems, but yeah, id argue the best. And obviously depending on your view of Libertarianism, some Libertarians argue we should not vote at all, particularly Agorists.

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      Milton

      Also, if you truly believe that UKIP has anything good to say about civil liberties, look at the fact that they want to reinstate the death penalty. UKIP believes that the state should have the right to murder people, not to mention their broader ideas on prisons and much harsher laws etc.

      In contrast with the LibDems, many of whom are passionate about prison reform, and none of whom support the death penalty.

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    Hannah Longford

    True, but Nigel is definitely a libertarian in terms of civil liberties and he’s definitely anti-war etc. He’s also pro-free markets.

    Sadly the socialist elements in the party have got to him and he seems to be vote-seeking now.

    His speeches are awesome.

    Sadly I think the Lib Dems are quite frankly over. The party you describe above is no longer the party we see today before us. There are elements of what you say still in the party, but until they grow a pair and get rid of Clegg they will remain social democrats rather than Liberals.

    I personally will vote UKIP in EU elections as i can’t stand the EU and think it’s highly dangerous for Liberty. They are massively pro- redistribution of wealth, pro-quotas, they hate freedom of speech and are evidently fraudulent.

    While we have a national democracy (which we do) we can’t have uncontrolled immigration from poorer countries as it will take us backward. While we are in a national democracy we have to have control over who comes in. Only when we scrap the welfare state can we have unfettered immigration. This won’t happen so in the real world, so we have to have border control.

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    Alexander J. Malt

    I am very sceptical about UKIP. In fact, I think they’re pretty dangerous for libertarians to associate with because although they adopt a lot of the rhetoric – Goddfrey Bloom even quoted Rothbard during a bit of bluster – I find it difficult to believe that they mean much of it (for the reasons outlined by Milton). Admittedly, their mad social conservatism can be funny sometimes like when that UKIP councillor attributed the flooding last winter to Cameron’s liberal stance on gay marriage, and in fairness we should acknowledge that UKIP did get rid of him. So I suspect that they’re very much in favour of the liberties to use non-PC words, but against the liberties of say, gay couples to marry, immigrants to move here, etc. Basically ultra-Tories rather than libertarians – my take is that just as when people who support Labour get stupider they turn to the BNP, when Tory voters go senile they vote UKIP.

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    Ben P

    At best, UKIP are libertarian-leaning on some major issues.  But so are the Lib Dems (regarding civil liberties), and there are individual Tory Party MPs and Lords who are virtually Minarchists (eg Douglas Carswell, Lord Lucas).  They are all still AUTHORITARIAN parties, which means they are not libertarian at all, no matter how appealing certain individuals or policies are.

    I think it would be a bad thing for UKIP to become the UK benchmark for libertarian values.  Winning the public over to our ideas is a steep hill anyway, without that dead-weight to carry!

    The only positive reason to vote UKIP is to support a staunch anti-EU grassroots revolt.  In the event that was successful, any libertarians supporting UKIP should be ready and willing to jump ship as soon as that task was completed, because you are making a pact with the devil. Others in this thread have pointed out the string of illiberal policies the party also holds, and would no doubt implement as soon as they get a chance.

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    Matthew John Hayden

    All of the parties are social democrats. So any vote is a waste, because you are voting for social democracy.

    You get Left Social Democracy from Labour, Right Social Democracy from the Tories and UKIP, and Centrist Social Democracy from the Lib Dems. And the difference between Left, Right and Centre is little more than fiddling over this department or that.

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    Gladstonian Liberal

    I can’t see Ukip ever becoming anything more than what it is/was: a protest movement against the EU and a home for nativist politics.

    It would be great if there was a consistent liberal/libertarian voice in politics. Even if that party didn’t get elected, and frankly would it want power, it could help shape the agenda and force Statists to confront liberal ideas.

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    Edward Guyatt

    Dividing into two parties is a very bad idea in First Past the Poll elections. Better not to waste your vote on a party doomed to failure unless it’s much, much better.

    It’s important to have a respectable opposition; information tends to flow downwards from the educated to the ignorant.[4] Since the left controls academia and press, the right most attracts petty, narrow-minded, uneducated dimwits. Its social function seems to be embarrassing itself, lagging behind and eventually capitulating on every issue. It can even be baited into looking stupid (e.g. Alt Right gamer kiddies and Creationist Science classes). UKIP comes perilously close to this failure mode in its core leadership[5]; the Tories steer clear.

    Migration and open borders increase liberty and allows prosperous diasporas to thrive, but they also feed the conflict, racism and wealth disparity that Progressivism depends on. Seems tactical to strangle the monster by denying it victims and reactor groups to agitate and use as human rhetorical shields. Best way to do this is keep labour out — each time you half a quantity, you half it by half as much. 🙂

    The Conservative Party is barely conservative, let alone Tory. Granted, there’s some Burkeanism[1] mixed with petty, parochial anti-capitalist localism[2], but after a disastrous campaign and first three months in office, it’s reverting to Cameronism.[3]

    UKIP’s intent to abolish the license fee would remove a source of propaganda. The relatively informative programming just helps the middle class rationalize progressive views; this contributes to cognitive bias and memetic infection. When the Nice Liberals (Stephen Fry, David Dimbleby, etc.) retire, all that will be left will be angry CTSJ activisty types and fuzzy progressives to brown-nose them — the fall into identity politics seems inevitable. Who knows, maybe it’s worth keeping the BBC around just to reduce ignorance.

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      Gladstonian Liberal

      Interesting points about the Conservative party. The brilliance of the Conservative party, from its supporters point of view, is that it is a formidable electoral machine. Part of its success is that it adapts to what voters want. It is important to remember that the party was initially an alliance between Tories and Whigs. Burke is credited as the founder of Conservatism was of course a Whig and never a Tory. So from the beginning, the party’s roots were based in the Whig tradition: suspicion of authority, limited government, rule of law and property rights. But the other part of the party was about tradition, support of the Monarchy and an aversion to change. Over time, the party was also influenced by paternalism (Disraeli’s One Nation philosophy) and a belief that someone had to be in charge so it would be better if it was the Conservative party and not the Liberals or Labour. You can see these conflicting positions in the modern-day Conservative party. Cameron tended towards the ‘someone needs to govern’ view, Oiliver Letwin, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson tend towards the Whig tradition while Theresa May, Philip Hammond are more Tory. Generally, they support free markets and low taxes but the party is willing to intervene in markets and raise taxes when it thinks it is required.

      There are some libertarians in the party: Dan Hannan and Matt Ridley but there are also some very strong non-libertarian forces.

      You are spot on that government’s need opposition and what is sadly lacking is a liberal/libertarian party. There is now a UK Libertarian party but it is very small and not, yet, punching through.

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